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#1 ~ Linda Wales ~

~ Linda Wales ~
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Posted 22 January 2006 - 04:43 PM

I have come across an ad in the newspaper about the Raviv Method and I have been trying to research it for weeks now. I placed a call to their office, I contacted some practitioners they recommended to me, and I talked to one of the schools that "recommeds them". My conclusions are very distrubing and I hope someone from their company will be able to answer these:

- After speaking to them on the phone and even receiving some unsolicitated phone calls from them, I was amazed to find out that they are asking for 1600 pounds for their training course. When I voiced my concerns to their sales representative, she immediately agreed to drop the price by 200 pounds and she even suggested that if the price is still not suitable for me, I might be able to get an even lower price. One of the practitioners I later contacted admitted to me that she only paid 800 pounds for the course. To me it seems as if they are trying to take advatage of concerned and desparate parents by trying to milk them for as much money as possible.

-I was told that there are no qualifications required in order to train as a practitioner!!!!!! I am not sure I would like to send my sons to a pracitioner whose only qualification is a very brief course. In addition, I asked who would be delivering the course and I was told that it would be a Mrs. Raviv who founded the method. When I asked whether she was trained professional, I was told that her professional training is in design. She is only as qualified as I am, as she is a parent of a dyslexic child just as I am.

-I further investigated to see what the raviv is based on. Apparently, there is no real substantial research to back them up execpt for a small study of 10 pupils of which only 8 succeeded to some degree. This is certainly not enough research to warrant my participation.

Again, I hope that I am mistaken on some of my conclusions and that someone whould take the time to address them properly, but at the moment I must admit that this smells like a big scam to me and I would not allow my children or any other children to participate in the.

Linda Wales

#2 ~ dolfrog ~

~ dolfrog ~
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Posted 22 January 2006 - 05:06 PM

Hi Linda

Welcome to the forum

I am not being synical but why does this not surprise me.

The probems are historic, and have been coming to the surface in recent months. The same thing is happeninf in other areas of invisible disabilities. Most of tthe invisialble disabilities are currently incurable, and due to the ulture of putting many on them under undifeined umbrellas, spectrums and syndromes; leave the dooe wide open to those who claim to have a magic remedy.
What is needed in the case of dyslexia ( the big umbrella and mythical condition), is for the educational professionals to first define an agreed working model the task of reading, and then define the range of skills required to carry out that task. This will then enable a more precise definition of dyslexia ( problems withg reading writing and spelling)
If there are a set of defined skills needed to perform the reading task then defining the deficits that cause problemsin aquiring the skilss to carry out that task is made easier.
Having defined to skills and areas of deficit we can then begin to identify coping strategies to work arounf these deficits. And all who claim a remedy would then have to define how their program fits with the parametred of these definitions.

currently it is a very wooly mess and anyone can claim to have a method or prgrtam that helps. There are no clinicla tests or trials. The only programs that has been trialed in the UK are
that i am aware of are PHONOMENA developed at Oxford University
http://www.mindweavers.co.uk/ and sold to the Japnese to help them learn english.
and Mind Games Solutions which was trialed in Schools in Cheshire. The program waqs also created by an adult dyslexic and a Senco to help the duslexic children in school.
http://www.mindgamessolutions.co.uk/

Again welcome to the forum

best wishes

dolfrog




I have come across an ad in the newspaper about the Raviv Method and I have been trying to research it for weeks now. I placed a call to their office, I contacted some practitioners they recommended to me, and I talked to one of the schools that "recommeds them". My conclusions are very distrubing and I hope someone from their company will be able to answer these:

- After speaking to them on the phone and even receiving some unsolicitated phone calls from them, I was amazed to find out that they are asking for 1600 pounds for their training course. When I voiced my concerns to their sales representative, she immediately agreed to drop the price by 200 pounds and she even suggested that if the price is still not suitable for me, I might be able to get an even lower price. One of the practitioners I later contacted admitted to me that she only paid 800 pounds for the course. To me it seems as if they are trying to take advatage of concerned and desparate parents by trying to milk them for as much money as possible.

-I was told that there are no qualifications required in order to train as a practitioner!!!!!! I am not sure I would like to send my sons to a pracitioner whose only qualification is a very brief course. In addition, I asked who would be delivering the course and I was told that it would be a Mrs. Raviv who founded the method. When I asked whether she was trained professional, I was told that her professional training is in design. She is only as qualified as I am, as she is a parent of a dyslexic child just as I am.

-I further investigated to see what the raviv is based on. Apparently, there is no real substantial research to back them up execpt for a small study of 10 pupils of which only 8 succeeded to some degree. This is certainly not enough research to warrant my participation.

Again, I hope that I am mistaken on some of my conclusions and that someone whould take the time to address them properly, but at the moment I must admit that this smells like a big scam to me and I would not allow my children or any other children to participate in the.

Linda Wales



#3 nick

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 05:22 PM

1. Do I have to have any existing experience with learning difficulties or ADD?
No, you do not need any specific experience, you just need to be interested in therapy or teaching. This method can be practised entirely by itself, and it is very practical and hands-on.
2. How can I begin working with clients after only 4 months training?
The reason the training takes only 4 months is because this is the duration of a treatment period on average - i.e. the time needed for the mind to change significantly. The program is based on the principle of using the method on yourself, and you are advised to treat at least two clients during the training course period. Therefore, when you complete the course, you can actually see the results you have personally achieved, and this gives you confidence as a practitioner. We do have an accreditation program for practitioners who achieve a specified level of expertise.
How much can I expect to earn as a practitioner of the Raviv Method?
Therapy fees charged by our graduates differ, but they are typically in the range of normal therapy fees about 50 per hour. People have reported back to us saying that in the first 3 months of practising the method, they have paid for the value of the training course
4-month training program
Nili Raviv will be delivering the Practitioner Training programs in London. The training is comprised of four core modules, each of which is taught over 2 days, at approximately monthly intervals (usually across a weekend).

I have copied the pieces above from the Raviv Method training programme, I was quite surprised to see how limited the training is, therefore you are able to charge 50 per hour!

I also note that part of the training programme is practising on other people? Are they also training to be practitioners, if so it would be another example of a pyramid selling program.

I would be most unhappy spending 50 per hour on somebody who has undertaken approximately 40 hours training.

I'm sorry to go on like this, and I promise you Jackie this is not personal, but the deeper I look at the training programme to which you subscribe but less it appears to stack up.


As you can see I think your concerns are justified, if their product is so good then why do they not prove it instead of relieing upon people vunerabilities.

Nick
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#4 ~ Ian ~

~ Ian ~
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 02:28 PM

Thank you for your queries, Linda. I am pleased to give my own personal response to your concerns.

The question of research is one that is often raised about complementary therapies, and is far more complex than it might appear to be.

Firstly, the Raviv Method is now well established in Israel, which means that the method continues to be developed on the basis of literally hundreds of individual case studies of children (and adults) who have been helped by the method. Although this evidence is based on clinical (rather than experimental) studies, this should not be belittled as the method is essentially idiographic rather than nomothetic - meaning that the pace and strength of its efficacy and effectiveness will vary according to the particular profile of difficulties that pertain to the individual client. Besides, a true experimental study would entail comparing an experimental group (clients using the Raviv Method) with a control group (clients using no method) and surely it would be unethical to require one group to go without any help just to further the interests of science?

Secondly, I'm surprised that you came across the word 'cure' in an advertisement as this is a word that no Raviv Practitioner should ever use. This is because dyslexia is not an illness (so there can be no cure). In fact, any dyslexic who undergoes the Raviv Method will retain the advantages of being dyslexic (e.g. creativity and use of 'right-brain' skills), but will also learn to retrain their brain to re-organise their neurological networks and processing to overcome the learning difficulties associated with being dyslexic. This 'neuro-cognitive' therapy is a feature of all modern approaches to overcoming learning difficulties (e.g. DDAT, Braingym, etc.) and is well-established in medical literature in relation to similar problems involving neural processing (e.g. head injuries and strokes).

Thirdly, I agree with you that the individual attention given to clients is an important aspect of the effectiveness of Raviv. In fact, it is so important that Raviv Practitioners will only work on a one-to-one basis with clients. This is a key reason why Raviv is superior to braingym (which usually operates with groups) and DDAT (which relies on home practice rather than regular one-to-one therapy). So, please, don't underestimate or undervalue this element of the therapy. Notwithstanding, if this was the only element at work, then why do learning disabled children improve more with a Raviv Practitioner than with their own parents (who undoubtedly give far more individual attention to their children)?

I can fully understand your concern over the lack of any independent verification of Raviv. However, this is no different from other therapies. Generally speaking, if someone finds a method that works then they become an advocate of that method; they would only remain 'independent' if the method didn't work. Also, only people with some interest in the method are likely to want to study it. This is even the case with drug tests, which are generally funded through powerful pharmaceutical companies who have a vested interest in promoting their products. For me, the question to ask is 'Why would anyone remain a Raviv Practitioner if they weren't seeing success with using the method?' In my own case, I worked with learning disabled people (children and adults) for many years before discovering Raviv. I trained in psychometrics and did a post-graduate diploma in special education, so I was aware of and had expertise in a variety of methods for working with learning disabled clients; but when I discovered Raviv I realised (by practising the method on live clients) that it results in faster and more positive improvements than the other methods that I had been trained in, so I naturally switched to it. If the method hadn't worked, then I would have abandoned it in favour of the other methods that I had previously used.

As for the costs, it is important to distinguish between therapy and training. The costs that you quote relate to the costs of being trained as a practitioner in the Raviv Method. As far as I know, the full cost is currently 1600, but, like most training organisations, the Raviv Society is willing to allow concessions for individuals who cannot afford to pay the full fee. However, if you are interested in helping your sons, you should really consider employing a Raviv Practitioner to work therapeutically with them, rather than training to be a Practitioner yourself. The reason for this is that it is very difficult to work as a therapist with anyone with whom you already have some kind of personal relationship (because of role conflicts and aspects of personal relationships interfering with the therapeutic relationship, which is the same in any field of therapy, not only Raviv). Practitioners are generally self-employed and so set their own tariff of fees for working with clients. Generally, within the London area you can expect to pay between 40 and 50 per hour per week, whereas outside of London fee levels are likely to be lower (say, between 30 and 40 per hour per week). A full programme of 20 weeks would, therefore, cost between 600 and 1000, although some practitioners may give a discount for working with two children from the same family.

In any case, both the training and the therapy are much less expensive than any other programme that I am aware of. Most practitioner programmes for other methods are at least 2000, and most therapies cost well over 1000. Most programmes will charge you about 250 just for an initial assessment - and that's before the programme starts - and most programmes last for at least two years (rather than 20 weeks), so even if the sessional fee is lower, the total cost will be much higher.

Personally, I charge 35 per hour and expect the programme to run for 20 weekly sessions, although I do not require clients to commit to any particular number of weeks. I will give up to 40% discount where clients are suffering financial hardship. I also start with a free (no obligation) consultation so that clients are fully aware of what the method involves and how I will work with them before they have to pay anything at all. So, I really think it is very unfair to say that Raviv Practitioners are only doing it for the money.

As for qualifications to train, it is generally expected that trainees will already be qualified to Level 3 of the UK National Qualifications Framework in order to cope with the academic demands of the training programme, although this requirement can be waived where a trainee can show that they have specialist experience to draw upon. In practice, however, many trainees are already qualified teachers or have some other specialist vocational or professional training. In my case, I already had a first class honours degree in social science, a Master of Philosophy research degree, a post-graduate diploma in psychology and a teaching qualification. However, I would not want to prevent someone who had developed in-depth knowledge of dyslexia and other learning difficulties (perhaps from personal experience of being dyslexic or having a dyslexic child) from undertaking the training, as their specific experience, commitment and motivation may compensate for lack of formal qualifications. In any case, the trainees still have to pass the course, which is by no means a foregone conclusion as they will have to demonstrate that they have developed the appropriate therapeutic skills in using the Raviv Method.

I think it is very unfair to criticise Nili Raviv for lacking formal training. She engaged in personal research and consulted with learning disability experts for at least 10 years before she developed the Raviv Method, and she has gone on to present academic papers on the subject. In my opinion, she is one of the most inspiring and innovative people that I have had the pleasure of knowing.

I hope you receive these comments in the spirit in which they are intended. I am very grateful that you have voiced your concerns, and I hope that my comments might help you to resolve some of them.

Please feel free to contact me again if you feel that further discussion might be helpful.

Regards,

Ian Toone
www.igttherapy.co.uk
iantoone@hotmail.com

#5 ~ dolfrog ~

~ dolfrog ~
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Posted 26 January 2006 - 03:43 PM

Hi Ian

Welcome to the forum

The real problem for dydlexics before they invest in any of the so called remedies, is to define the underlying causes of their dyslexia, and for the various Program providers designers etc to stipulate which of these underlying causes of dyslexia their particular program addresses.

The problems is that ALL of these many programs CLAIM to work for ALL dyslexics, and that is pure nonsense and a scam. What is needed is more honesty as to which group of dydlexics each program works for. Then we can begin to beleive in with ever method you care to metion, but none will provide such clarity, and just exploit all dyslexics for 1600 and for many to spend that on a program that does not work for them is pure exploitation and criminal.

So start defining which group of dydlexics the RAViV Dore or any other program will help and STOP this exploitation and fraudulent claim to work for all Dyslexics.

Basically All in your profession need to be more specific in what you are able tyo offer especially for the money you charge.

Or parhaps you should pursuade the NHS to approve these programs so that they are available for all. This ois now being done By FASTFORWORD which used to claim to be a cure for APD, but is now more realistic in its claims in more recent years.

Best wishes


dolfrog





Thank you for your queries, Linda. I am pleased to give my own personal response to your concerns.

The question of research is one that is often raised about complementary therapies, and is far more complex than it might appear to be.

Firstly, the Raviv Method is now well established in Israel, which means that the method continues to be developed on the basis of literally hundreds of individual case studies of children (and adults) who have been helped by the method. Although this evidence is based on clinical (rather than experimental) studies, this should not be belittled as the method is essentially idiographic rather than nomothetic - meaning that the pace and strength of its efficacy and effectiveness will vary according to the particular profile of difficulties that pertain to the individual client. Besides, a true experimental study would entail comparing an experimental group (clients using the Raviv Method) with a control group (clients using no method) and surely it would be unethical to require one group to go without any help just to further the interests of science?

Secondly, I'm surprised that you came across the word 'cure' in an advertisement as this is a word that no Raviv Practitioner should ever use. This is because dyslexia is not an illness (so there can be no cure). In fact, any dyslexic who undergoes the Raviv Method will retain the advantages of being dyslexic (e.g. creativity and use of 'right-brain' skills), but will also learn to retrain their brain to re-organise their neurological networks and processing to overcome the learning difficulties associated with being dyslexic. This 'neuro-cognitive' therapy is a feature of all modern approaches to overcoming learning difficulties (e.g. DDAT, Braingym, etc.) and is well-established in medical literature in relation to similar problems involving neural processing (e.g. head injuries and strokes).

Thirdly, I agree with you that the individual attention given to clients is an important aspect of the effectiveness of Raviv. In fact, it is so important that Raviv Practitioners will only work on a one-to-one basis with clients. This is a key reason why Raviv is superior to braingym (which usually operates with groups) and DDAT (which relies on home practice rather than regular one-to-one therapy). So, please, don't underestimate or undervalue this element of the therapy. Notwithstanding, if this was the only element at work, then why do learning disabled children improve more with a Raviv Practitioner than with their own parents (who undoubtedly give far more individual attention to their children)?

I can fully understand your concern over the lack of any independent verification of Raviv. However, this is no different from other therapies. Generally speaking, if someone finds a method that works then they become an advocate of that method; they would only remain 'independent' if the method didn't work. Also, only people with some interest in the method are likely to want to study it. This is even the case with drug tests, which are generally funded through powerful pharmaceutical companies who have a vested interest in promoting their products. For me, the question to ask is 'Why would anyone remain a Raviv Practitioner if they weren't seeing success with using the method?' In my own case, I worked with learning disabled people (children and adults) for many years before discovering Raviv. I trained in psychometrics and did a post-graduate diploma in special education, so I was aware of and had expertise in a variety of methods for working with learning disabled clients; but when I discovered Raviv I realised (by practising the method on live clients) that it results in faster and more positive improvements than the other methods that I had been trained in, so I naturally switched to it. If the method hadn't worked, then I would have abandoned it in favour of the other methods that I had previously used.

As for the costs, it is important to distinguish between therapy and training. The costs that you quote relate to the costs of being trained as a practitioner in the Raviv Method. As far as I know, the full cost is currently 1600, but, like most training organisations, the Raviv Society is willing to allow concessions for individuals who cannot afford to pay the full fee. However, if you are interested in helping your sons, you should really consider employing a Raviv Practitioner to work therapeutically with them, rather than training to be a Practitioner yourself. The reason for this is that it is very difficult to work as a therapist with anyone with whom you already have some kind of personal relationship (because of role conflicts and aspects of personal relationships interfering with the therapeutic relationship, which is the same in any field of therapy, not only Raviv). Practitioners are generally self-employed and so set their own tariff of fees for working with clients. Generally, within the London area you can expect to pay between 40 and 50 per hour per week, whereas outside of London fee levels are likely to be lower (say, between 30 and 40 per hour per week). A full programme of 20 weeks would, therefore, cost between 600 and 1000, although some practitioners may give a discount for working with two children from the same family.

In any case, both the training and the therapy are much less expensive than any other programme that I am aware of. Most practitioner programmes for other methods are at least 2000, and most therapies cost well over 1000. Most programmes will charge you about 250 just for an initial assessment - and that's before the programme starts - and most programmes last for at least two years (rather than 20 weeks), so even if the sessional fee is lower, the total cost will be much higher.

Personally, I charge 35 per hour and expect the programme to run for 20 weekly sessions, although I do not require clients to commit to any particular number of weeks. I will give up to 40% discount where clients are suffering financial hardship. I also start with a free (no obligation) consultation so that clients are fully aware of what the method involves and how I will work with them before they have to pay anything at all. So, I really think it is very unfair to say that Raviv Practitioners are only doing it for the money.

As for qualifications to train, it is generally expected that trainees will already be qualified to Level 3 of the UK National Qualifications Framework in order to cope with the academic demands of the training programme, although this requirement can be waived where a trainee can show that they have specialist experience to draw upon. In practice, however, many trainees are already qualified teachers or have some other specialist vocational or professional training. In my case, I already had a first class honours degree in social science, a Master of Philosophy research degree, a post-graduate diploma in psychology and a teaching qualification. However, I would not want to prevent someone who had developed in-depth knowledge of dyslexia and other learning difficulties (perhaps from personal experience of being dyslexic or having a dyslexic child) from undertaking the training, as their specific experience, commitment and motivation may compensate for lack of formal qualifications. In any case, the trainees still have to pass the course, which is by no means a foregone conclusion as they will have to demonstrate that they have developed the appropriate therapeutic skills in using the Raviv Method.

I think it is very unfair to criticise Nili Raviv for lacking formal training. She engaged in personal research and consulted with learning disability experts for at least 10 years before she developed the Raviv Method, and she has gone on to present academic papers on the subject. In my opinion, she is one of the most inspiring and innovative people that I have had the pleasure of knowing.

I hope you receive these comments in the spirit in which they are intended. I am very grateful that you have voiced your concerns, and I hope that my comments might help you to resolve some of them.

Please feel free to contact me again if you feel that further discussion might be helpful.

Regards,

Ian Toone
www.igttherapy.co.uk
iantoone@hotmail.com






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